Should fishery owners regulate anglers tackle more closely?

[spickup79]

Evening chaps

I feel like starting off a discussion, so here goes....

There have been a few threads recently on a certain other forum that I sometimes lurk on, where people have made reference to fish in commercials with 'parrot mouths'. I firmly believe that a big cause of this is people using tackle that is far too heavy for the fish they are catching, and/or anglers trying to bully the fish out of the water.

After reading these threads I thought back to a pleasure session I had a few weeks ago on Holbar at Partridge Lakes. This lake holds plenty of carp in the 5 - 10lb bracket, with a fair few low-mid doubles and supposedly a small number of 20s (I've never seen them). It also holds F1s, skimmers and small barbel upto maybe 1lb. My Dad was with me that day, sat at my peg chatting to me whilst I fished. Part way through the day he pointed across the lake to a lad playing a fish and said "why is his rod hardly bending?" (my Dad's fishing knowledge is very limited!).

Of course, the reason was because he was fishing with a poker-stiff carp rod, probably with a 3lb test curve, and the fish he was playing was only about 5 or 6lb. And this is something you can see a lot at commercials. Whenever I've fished Holbar I've seen plenty of anglers using specimen carp gear to catch these relatively small carp. Meanwhile, I use a 10ft commercial feeder rod, with a nice soft action, and a 2lb skimmer puts a healthy bend into it, but I'm still able to safely land a 10lb carp.

So I was thinking, should fishery owners be stricter about the tackle they allow anglers to use? Most specify barbless hooks only, and many specify a maximum hook size, but none seem to specify the strength of rod or line that can be used. Is this sort of thing enforceable? Do fishery owners even care? Do other anglers even care? I know if it was my fishery, I'd want to do everything possible to look after my fish stocks. And it does make me cringe when I see fish with deformed mouths because they've been absolutely battered by anglers.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against carp anglers using specimen tactics, but it seems to me they are very over-gunned when they use gear that would have beaten Two Tone in a matter of minutes on these sorts of fisheries.

Interested in peoples thoughts....

[ABBO62]

No point in having ANY rules or bait bans if they are not prepared to enforce them! 99.9% recurring of fishery owners do not!
The only anglers that benefit from bans and rules are cheats in matches,honest matchmen are at a big disadvantage!
There is no doubt that the things you say are causing it Steve,just writing an endless list of drivel on a rules board makes no difference in stopping it!

[BIG COL]

N matter how many Rules are Anglers will bend them
Moorlands under Previous owner was the opposite
Rules were adhered to ,Regular hook & Bait checks
Fish safety was was paramount
If you were Caught you were OFF
Personaly i WISH it was like that Now
Sadly there are a lot of Anglers doing as they want

[spickup79]

Interesting points. I've NEVER had my tackle or bait checked at any fishery I've been to, whether pleasure fishing or on a match - for all the owners know I could have been using size 4 barbed hooks to 50lb braid and fishing with all the banned baits on their list. I haven't been, because I respect the rules of the fishery (if you don't like the rules, don't fish there), and I recognise certain rules are there to protect the fish, but I've seen first hand anglers breaking rules about bait - using groundbait when its banned, using their own pellets when its fishery pellets only etc. Its not inconceivable that they would think nothing of breaking other rules too, especially when there's little fear of being caught.

[SLOWTRAIN9]

Well Done Sp79 for raising this subject.

I cannot agree more that many many of our fish are suffering in this way! mainly due to fishery owners turning a blind eye, chasing the quick buck! add to this,the competitive bullying anglers and the inexperienced fishing with over heavy tackle! (No problem here, we've all been here and have to start somewhere)
I fish many commercial matches winter and summer, SADLY! have only once in 12yrs been asked to show Hook and Bait.

Nuff said
JWB
Lots of

Evening chaps

I feel like starting off a discussion, so here goes....

There have been a few threads recently on a certain other forum that I sometimes lurk on, where people have made reference to fish in commercials with 'parrot mouths'. I firmly believe that a big cause of this is people using tackle that is far too heavy for the fish they are catching, and/or anglers trying to bully the fish out of the water.

After reading these threads I thought back to a pleasure session I had a few weeks ago on Holbar at Partridge Lakes. This lake holds plenty of carp in the 5 - 10lb bracket, with a fair few low-mid doubles and supposedly a small number of 20s (I've never seen them). It also holds F1s, skimmers and small barbel upto maybe 1lb. My Dad was with me that day, sat at my peg chatting to me whilst I fished. Part way through the day he pointed across the lake to a lad playing a fish and said "why is his rod hardly bending?" (my Dad's fishing knowledge is very limited!).

Of course, the reason was because he was fishing with a poker-stiff carp rod, probably with a 3lb test curve, and the fish he was playing was only about 5 or 6lb. And this is something you can see a lot at commercials. Whenever I've fished Holbar I've seen plenty of anglers using specimen carp gear to catch these relatively small carp. Meanwhile, I use a 10ft commercial feeder rod, with a nice soft action, and a 2lb skimmer puts a healthy bend into it, but I'm still able to safely land a 10lb carp.

So I was thinking, should fishery owners be stricter about the tackle they allow anglers to use? Most specify barbless hooks only, and many specify a maximum hook size, but none seem to specify the strength of rod or line that can be used. Is this sort of thing enforceable? Do fishery owners even care? Do other anglers even care? I know if it was my fishery, I'd want to do everything possible to look after my fish stocks. And it does make me cringe when I see fish with deformed mouths because they've been absolutely battered by anglers.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against carp anglers using specimen tactics, but it seems to me they are very over-gunned when they use gear that would have beaten Two Tone in a matter of minutes on these sorts of fisheries.

Interested in peoples thoughts....

[MikeS]

I think this is one of those topics that is not as straight forward as it seems.
The questions I would ask is, Is the damage to fishes mouths the result of heavy tackle, poor technique when unhooking or playing a fish for extended periods on light tackle?

Just as much damage can be caused by over playing a fish as the hook works loose and then tears away or when a fish bolts into vegetation on light tackle with damage caused during the ensuing tug of war.

Rough handling in the net can also be a cause.

So, in my view the answer lies in education rather than regulation. How this is delivered is anyone's guess? Perhaps clubs have a part to play here by issuing information leaflets or organising induction classes for newcomers.

I do not think any of us would really appreciate a fishery owner sitting on our shoulder nor do I think the fishery owner would particularly want to even if he had the time; I'm tempted to say he would be making a rod for his own back . If it were to come common place that commercial fishery owners needed to employ someone to police rule infringements then you can probably work out who would bear the additional cost.

[fordysufc]

I don't think it is overly stiff rods tbh because when using stiffer rods you tend to keep a looser clutch. Also I do a lot of carp angling with suitably stiff rods and have never caught fish or seen fish caught on lakes where this is the only type of fishing used. The worst places for parrot mouths in my experience are snake lakes, so based on that I would say that the playing of fish on a pole with fine lines is the cause of parrot mouths in nearly every case.

[dirkdiggler]

I'd say it's bad angling from a lot of different sides that is to blame for fish damage.
I've seen a lot of so called Specimen anglers sat on deck chairs at Commercials fishing with some dreadful stuff however I've also seen plenty of Matchmen absolutely skulling carp in too.
I think it comes down for the most part to people not really knowing or caring what they are doing, after all when was the last time any of us had a lesson on fish care?

[MikeS]

Not wishing to set one group of anglers against another, I would say it is a combination of a number of factors. None least that on busy fisheries the fish will be caught many times a week and this is going to take its toll. It is the nature of our sport unfortunately.

That's not to say that all anglers can't do their part by using balanced tackle, use fish friendly terminal gear that is free running so that it falls away in the event of breakage, use barbless hooks, carry forceps and disgorgers, unhook with care with minimal contact, consider fish exit routes away from snags to which they can be steered. I'm sure you can think of others.
Most responsible anglers consider fish welfare and do these already. It is getting the message across to others that is the problem so perhaps a solution is for fishery owners to put up a notice that lists the ways to avoid fish damage.

[Oneabung]

I would say that using brutal tactics to land fish could include the use of puller bungs... how do people do some of the massive weights that are being caught these days without bullying fish to the net - having said that the quicker the fish is played and into the keepnet SAFELY is also another factor. One thing I do see alot of is people not knowing how to unhook fish properly.

[BIG COL]

Pulla bungs with HEAVY elastic lines & Big hooks
Pullas used in the correct way IMO cause no damage
but in the Hands of some Anglers that do not know how to set them up or even use them ,they can cause no end of Damage !!
it amazes me that there are literaly 1000s of Anglers out there that do not OWN a Discorger
Most new comers to the Sport dont even know what they are ,never mind how to use one
Last year i was asked by a regular Open Angler wat was the thing hanging round my neck & what was it for
when i explained what it was for ,his answer was i just pull the line till the hook works loose
i cant print what i called him because it would be a life Ban

[maverboy]

You have a few more fish today Col,who won?

[spickup79]

Glad to see I've started a bit of a healthy discussion. Very interesting and valid points. It seems there is a fine balance to strike in terms of how heavy one's gear is - too light and you end up playing big fish for far too long, too heavy and you damage them by skull-dragging them out. Whilst my initial post focussed on anglers using specimen carp gear, I was not trying to have a go at carpers, and its clear that match and pleasure anglers do fish a lot of damage too.

I've read theories that barbed hooks do less damage than barbless due to the better hook-hold they give and the hook not 'cheese-wiring' the fishes mouth every time it turns or runs. I guess that's one theory that will never be proven though as no fishery owner would take the chance of allowing barbed hooks. Plus they are very difficult to remove compared to barbless so that's when a lot of damage could be done.

I agree puller bungs used incorrectly can be a big cause of fish damage. All too common to see a match angler pulling the elastic as soon as they break down to the top kit, even though the fish is still running and they have yards of elastic out, in a bid to land the fish quicker.

Also agree poor fish handling on the bank is a key factor - how often do you see someone land a carp on the feeder, pull the net onto their lap to unhook the fish whilst jamming the rod butt under their leg, and not paying out any line so the rod is bent double until the hook is out? That must put tremendous pressure on a fishes mouth.

Col - can't believe that comment off a fellow angler about your disgorger! Absolutely shocking!

[MikeS]

I agree puller bungs used incorrectly can be a big cause of fish damage. All too common to see a match angler pulling the elastic as soon as they break down to the top kit, even though the fish is still running and they have yards of elastic out, in a bid to land the fish quicker.

I'm not trying to contradict or criticise the comments about pulla bungs but merely explain what sometimes happens and therefore why it may appear brutal to those that do not pole fish.

Most will know that there are many different grades of elastic which are selected depending on the size and species of fish. Without going into a very, very long discussion about elastic performance quite simply it is lighter elastic for smaller fish.

So, what can often happen is that a pole angler will be fishing for small silver fish, with light terminal gear and corresponding elastic, when a carp arrives to bully out the smaller fish to get to the feed. So, the angler now has a lump of a carp dashing all over the place which needs to be bought under control quickly if he is to have any chance of landing it as well as to prevent it from reaching the nearest snag. This thread has already discussed the potential damage that can be caused by retrieving fish from snags as well as the need to keep playing times to a minimum.
So to gain control of the fish the light elastic has to be stripped back fairly quickly so that the fish can be steered into open water to be played and landed safely. The shortened elastic will still provide some cushioning effect as does the top kit.

I'm not suggesting that is what happens all the time but might explain what has been observed.